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Yo, Show, wtf?

I've only seen this ep once, and y'all know I tend to miss important bits of the plot because drooling, but I just want to know-- what the fuck is wrong with Sam? I don't get this caring and sharing he's got going on with Gabriel. Not saying I don't like Gabe, not saying that in his own twisted sort of way, he likes the Winchesters, some version of like anyway, but Sam has no fucking reason to be so nice to him. It's really making me mad.

Is this some sort of harking back to first season Sam? If it is, they need to stop. Sam's over thirty now, has had the world and heaven shit all over him. He's got to be more cynical than that. Trying to bring back those characters from way back then does these boys a disservice. They can't be those guys anymore. Age and terrible experience has sunk that ship. I hope I'm just seeing it wrong. I do that a lot. I will be very happy if someone can explain to me why I'm completely wrong here.

Also, I'd like to know how the children do all their work on phones and tablets, because this shit with the pretend keys is about to make me go off!!

ETA: you guys are freaking amazing and I love y'all to bits!!!


( 22 comments — Leave a comment )
Apr. 27th, 2018 03:53 am (UTC)
Well, I hate seeing Sam be so kind to Gabriel too, because the things that Gabriel put him through feel rather unforgivable to me. But I'm trying to rationalize it by looking at it as Sam feeling empathy for Gabriel because they've both had similar experiences being held prisoner and tortured and abused.
Apr. 27th, 2018 08:41 pm (UTC)
I guess what I really wanted was for at some point for Sam to say, "Sooo...remember all those Tuesdays? And that one Wednesday? Hold that thought while I rub a little Vaseline on my knuckles."

Apr. 27th, 2018 08:45 pm (UTC)
I know. A part of me would have loved to see that, but I really do think that Sam's a bigger person than that, even though he's not as innocent and hopeful as he used to be.
Apr. 27th, 2018 05:12 am (UTC)
I think it's very much tied into the empathy Sam has felt for Rowena so far this season. He relates to her because of Lucifer torturing both of them, and I think it's similar with Gabriel. He saw Gabriel absolutely broken from what Asmodeus did to him, and relates that to what Lucifer put him through. He was also the one to take care of Gabriel right when he was rescued, and I mean, who could have NOT been really kind to him under those circumstances? :( Just LOOK at the guy. :( :( :(

So I think because of being placed in that caretaker role, not by his choice (he wanted to go with Dean into the rift), and because of recently thinking a lot more often about his own torture trauma, he therefore feels compassion and sympathy for him.

Sam's much more cynical than he used to be, true, but he's still usually seeing things from the softer side, more often than Dean does. He's almost always the one to point out if someone's rights are being trampled on, if there's some ethical reason why they shouldn't take a certain course of action, etc. As far as I can see, that side of Sam's personality has never changed completely. It's always been a big part of who he is, and still is.

At least, that's the way I see it. Just my two cents. ;)

Edited at 2018-04-27 05:13 am (UTC)
Apr. 27th, 2018 08:39 pm (UTC)
I can see your points, of course, and in terms of the character, they make sense. Maybe I'm just frustrated with how Sam never seems to get his own back. Maybe I'm over-identifying with him. :)
Apr. 27th, 2018 06:02 am (UTC)
I think that Sam looks at Gabriel and Rowena and sees too much of a reflection of himself. All three of them have been broken and tortured. I think that Sam thinks, deep inside that if they can be fixed then, so can he. The same goes for Dean. Sam sees what the world has done to his big brother, his family, himself. Like he's tried way too many times before, he just wants to fix it.
Apr. 27th, 2018 08:24 pm (UTC)
I agree with this to a certain extent...but there have been changes to Sam that I think the last few eps ignored. I like to see a caring Sam, but I also like to see it laced with that bit of ruthlessness that's also part of him. He's just reading a little too victim lately, and I've never thought of Sam as a victim before.
Apr. 27th, 2018 05:51 pm (UTC)
Zi Process: "Ooh, guys, I found a whole new tag on Tumblr! They'll love it if we write this! Who cares if Sam wouldn't do this nowadays?"

They don't care about these things anymore. *waves "bitter" flag bitterly*

And I have no idea how anybody gets anything but games and reading done on those things. I can barely manage Twitter! (I had to wait six hours to comment on this so I would be at a real keyboard!)
Apr. 27th, 2018 08:22 pm (UTC)
I hate to say this, but I really did wonder if the writers had discovered the existence of Sabriel.
Apr. 27th, 2018 09:47 pm (UTC)
Awww, bb.
*pet pet pet*
Sam has always had that in him, that empathy, that ability to connect. I think he's so far over what Gabriel did, so many years ago.....

And i think he knows revenge is either a long game (which can eat up your life) or best just forgotten. I think he'd like to forget a lot of things.....
*pets him*

I didn't surprise me. What I *did* want was Sam coming back at Dean with 'how do you think I feel about *you*' kind of remark. Because as much as Dean loves and wants to protect Sam - Sam feels that for Dean, too.

But - over all. Good ep!
BOY HOOKER! I give them kudos for that.

*I* am bitter that the classic music that defined the show seems to have been forgotten.
Apr. 28th, 2018 02:33 am (UTC)
You think that way about Sam because you're a hell of a better person than I am. I'm all behind Sam like, "Here--here's a bat, and a screwdriver, show him what you think about Broward Mystery Spot. I'll hold your beer." Granted, I might have to push him some....*whistles*

What I *did* want was Sam coming back at Dean with 'how do you think I feel about *you*' kind of remark.

Agreed. They both need to hear it out loud. I was proud of Dean for stating it baldly like that.

I also grant kudos for boy hooker, just being there with no explanation and no particularly jokey attitude about it. :)
*I* am bitter that the classic music that defined the show seems to have been forgotten.

Yes! It's been a hallmark of the show for years--what, can't they afford it anymore? I miss it too. One of the reasons watching it on Netflix can be weird, with their song substitutions.
Apr. 28th, 2018 02:41 am (UTC)
Aw, nah - I'm not a better person, I think *Sam* is. :)
I mean - I hate Gabriel for what he did, for being an all-around wanker. But I think Sam still has this core of goodness in him, almost untouched.

YES - there were no jokes or stupid moments or 'omg, boy', just - one of them wanted a boy hooker, and there he was.

I leave comments on the show-runner's twitter and the cw twitter about the music all the time. It really irks me.
Apr. 29th, 2018 04:34 am (UTC)
It may be that at this point Sam's been through so much crap that "Mystery Spot" isn't as high on his list of traumas as it was in Season 5. I mean, since then, Lucifer has screwed him over 4 times (Hell, haunting, luring him to the cage for the big breakout and trapping Mary in the other world), he's had to deal with Leviathans killing all the people he and Dean saved in Season 1 *and* Bobby, there was the whole "Mark of Cain/Demon Dean" thing, he killed Death and unleashed the Darkness, and the Trials almost killed him in whatever season that was, and those are just the low points that come immediately to mind.

And I think they both *did* hear it out loud. I mean, "If we die, we do that together" is pretty much Winchester for "Man I am done watching you die; I can't take it again."

WRT "boy hooker," that's "boy porn star." :) And as for the music, they probably *can't* afford it any more. The boys are probably making significantly more in Season 13 than they did in Season 1, and music rights ain't cheap when you're going for well known songs by well known bands. Obscure album cuts and singles like the song that played over Dean riding the mechanical bull, those are cheaper, but classic anthems like "Back in Black" and "Wanted Dead or Alive" are probably stupid spendy.

Bonus points for casting the guard Dean had to Cyrano Charlie through flirting with in "The Girl with the Dungeons and Dragons Tattoo" as Narfi; no love for ignoring Hela. Loved Sleipnir's horse-blanket-plaid suit.

Oh, and I think I have a solution for Other!Michael that would work and you could get Lucifer on board with--lure Michael to this Earth and Horseman-ring him into the Cage. I'm pretty sure Cage!Michael would like a more durable chew toy than whatever's left of Adam since Lucifer left.

Apr. 29th, 2018 05:41 am (UTC)
Sleep deprived brain is sleep deprived
Oh, yeah, and Dean was in Purgatory all summer after Season 7, and Sam was "dealing" by dancing as fast as he could with a veterinarian who stole his dog when they broke up. And Charlie died. And Kevin. And Missouri. And Cas, more than once. And he was tortured by the Men of Letters. And and and. The Winchesters' lives suck beyond the telling of it. They both deserve whatever shreds of peace they can claw out of the Universe, even if that means letting something we consider unforgiveable lie.

Apr. 30th, 2018 06:18 pm (UTC)
RE: Sleep deprived brain is sleep deprived

You are so fucking right. Really, everything you said was truth. And I'm officially getting out of my own way now. I just wanted Sam to act like I would...and that's not even the whole truth, because I've forgiven folks for some stupid-ass shit, and I've done it over and over in the interest of maintaining the peace, so, yeah, getting past me and looking at Sam, you're right. And judging by most of the replies, the crew agrees with you.♥
Apr. 28th, 2018 12:03 am (UTC)
I have the same quibble you do - I get that they need Gabe because of his grace but Sam should still have some hard feelings about the torture he was put through by him.

I think sometimes affection for the actor ends up altering the DNA of the role. Speight is loved so suddenly Gabe is a friend.
Apr. 28th, 2018 02:25 am (UTC)
I think sometimes affection for the actor ends up altering the DNA of the role. Speight is loved so suddenly Gabe is a friend.

YES! I think this happens so often on SpN because the actors are so personable they make the viewers forget that, oh yeah, a season or so ago, they tortured our boys in horrible ways.
Apr. 28th, 2018 10:48 pm (UTC)
I wonder if the fact that Gabriel did try to help them with Lucifer, and was almost killed helped Sam move past his feelings towards Gabriel? He did give them the clues to getting rid of Lucifer
and while Gabriel hid from his Lucifer rather than helping them on the front lines, I think Sam would understand that. Then there is the years of torture... I would have liked to have seen Gabriel at
least apoligize to Sam.
Apr. 30th, 2018 06:20 pm (UTC)
*Now* I totally agree. And it would be nice to hear Gabriel say it, but I think we'll have to settle for actions over words. :)
Apr. 30th, 2018 11:32 am (UTC)
I still haven't watched the last FOUR fucking episodes, so I am avoiding spoilers like the actual black death, but, your title dragged me in because basically I trust in your judgement on show, your posts are never complaint or moan heavy, and if they are there's a damned fucking good reason, so - keep in mind I haven't watched the episode, but I has thoughts, thinky thoughts.

I think Sam long ago saw that he has a penchant for revenge, and the long game that goes with it. i think he knows he could go all fucking out, live hand to mouth, tooth and claw, and spend his entire existence ruining himself in order to revenge himself upon the people who've wronged him (or, mainly, his brother, because Sam is all about Dean) and Gabriel is one of the creatures who taught him that. He went hell for leather for those six months without Dean, after that one Wednesday, and he could have destroyed himself. He only didn't because Gabriel finally decided to take some kind of antsy annoyed pity on him. Move along a lot of years and a lot of angry outbursts and a whole hell of a lot of losses, and I think Sam finds it easier to show empathy than he does to sink his teeth into a grudge and shake his head like a terrier. He *knows* he could (as you so beautifully put and made me laugh out loud) grease his knuckles and have at it, but he's older, wiser, and a lot more tired than he was when he wanted to split Gabriel from navel to nose.

However, I don't disagree that the show writers need to let Sammy have his moment and fuck a brother up when they try and steam roller him.

Apr. 30th, 2018 06:26 pm (UTC)
Thank you! I'm so glad you understand that I can complain about Show, but still love it like fire!

I LOVE your beautiful comment. Folks have made me really think about Sam, and who he is and who he wants to be.

Aaaaaaand what he is *not*, is roxy- Sue. :D :D;D
May. 11th, 2018 10:55 pm (UTC)
Dude we ALL need a complain about show every so often. It's those among us who complain more than enjoy, thems the folks who fuck me off royally. If you don't like it any more, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, and why the hell are you wasting your precious breaths bitching about something you could walk away from? But when you say something like this, I get you need a vent and a chat and a decent conversation. I admire that.

LOL! He's not, but sometimes I think he probably feels like it ;)

Edited at 2018-05-11 10:57 pm (UTC)
( 22 comments — Leave a comment )


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